5 Years of Durable Value: Lessons, Growth, and the Future of Real Estate | Durable Value Ep 82
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Joe Muratore: Ryan, as we sit here today, we, uh, it's June of 2025. Our first podcast was June of 2020. That means we've done this for five years. In truth, we've done 70 Six episodes. Like, what the heck have we talked about for 76 episodes? How are we different today than we were five years ago? Let's break down some of the themes.
I think for starters, let's talk about how you and I have changed. Let's talk about how the company's changed, and then let's talk about the things that are staying, stayed the same. But let's start with you. How are you... I mean, you're older. A little older. Little more gray. See a little more gray.
Ryan Swehla: You know, if people go back to those older podcast episodes, they'll see a younger, more vibrant- More
Joe Muratore: spry.
You're still- Yeah ...
Ryan Swehla: still
Joe Muratore: pretty fit, dude. Yeah, yeah. But what's, what's different? I like your watch, you know. Uh-huh. The running watch. What's different about you today than five years ago? What,
Ryan Swehla: who are you today? Well, I mean, i- it's funny you, you mention older, but, uh, there, there is a component to that actually, because I feel like as we get older, we also become more self-reflective, get closer to our mortality.
Parts of our body start breaking down.
Joe Muratore: Okay.
Ryan Swehla: And we, and we realize that, like, you know-
Joe Muratore: That's a different podcast.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah. But we realize that, like, you know, w- what we're doing today, like, I wanna make it the best that I can because- Yeah ... we've only got whatever many years we have of life, uh, on this earth, and let's spend that time doing something epic.
So I feel like, you know, even five years ago, we were a little bit less, um, self-reflective, a little bit less introspective than what naturally happens over that, that progression of time.
Joe Muratore: How's your role changed in five years? How do you spend your time differently today?
Ryan Swehla: It's interesting because, uh, y- we know this, the pie maker analogy of, you know, just because you're a good pie maker doesn't mean you're a good business owner and doesn't mean that you can grow a company that makes pies.
I would say five years ago, uh, we were much more in the pie-making role of, uh, finding great investments and capitalizing those investments, uh, than we are today. We've really built, built an exceptional team. You mentioned we've got 62 people now, and, uh, some really exceptional t- uh, team members, and it's allowed us to continue to work in our, our highest and best space, which is really thinking about where the company's growing, where we wanna be investing, and how we see the world changing around us.
How about you? How have things changed for you over the last five years?
Joe Muratore: Let me start by saying it's been tremendous to build a business with you. We've known each other since third grade in Fremont Elementary School, and we've had this business for 17 years, and we've been, we've built this thing from day one, and it's, uh, been tremendous.
So the first thing to say is I'm thrilled that, to be sitting across from you in these chairs and reflecting five years in, and I look forward to 10 years in and 15 and 20 years in. These, uh, these podcasts are a little, uh, time capsules of sorts, 10 to 15 per year, and they capture our feelings at different parts of the market, different parts of the business.
So- How am I different? Uh, well, I'm more seasoned, a lot more seasoned. We've been through 55 acquisitions and 13 dispositions. We've seen a lot of things go right. We've had some excellent exits. We've seen some challenges, we've seen some setbacks, and those have all sort of battle-hardened us. We've been through, uh, a market rise as of 2020.
We were at the beginning of COVID. Asset values in the United States peaked in about June of 2022, and have since, uh, dropped 15 or 20%. I've learned that we're in the defense game as much as we are in the offense game. I don't think I would've known that in 2020, but a lot of what we do is adding value, uh, to create cash flow and to brace against market downturns and to be prepared for market upturns.
I've leaned into my inner CEO or leader. I, you know, I didn't grow up thinking like I was gonna be a, a business leader, and today we have 62 employees, and we're in three states and 10 markets. And, you know, I'm able to sit in this chair, maybe you feel this way, too, but I ... You know, most people that go into business struggle with imposter syndrome at some point.
Like, "Oh, if they only knew that I didn't totally have this figured out." Well, I guess, you know, at age 46 with 17 years of doing this, I sit here with a little more of like, "Yeah, anyone can do this," but we've been through ups and downs. There hasn't been many easy days. I'm different in that I have more strength of conviction, more, uh
I'm more battle-tested. I think we still have the spark of joy that comes with building this business. We sit here from, with, uh, more strength and experience.
Ryan Swehla: You know, we started the business in December of 2008, subsequently, uh, or shortly after Lehman Brothers collapsed, and so we saw a lot of challenge during that period of time.
But then we really entered this decade of, you know, kind of up and to the right. That was, uh, ended pretty much when we started our podcast episodes because we had the, the pandemic, and then we had the rate hikes and the inflationary environment and the monetary policy, and today the volatility in the markets and the, and tariffs.
That has hardened us in a good way. It's, it's made us more resilient. It's made us more Uh, durable. Made us, I'd say, more process-oriented. There's this natural evolution in a company where you start by, as you were saying, figuring it out, and figuring out how to make things work. And then over time, you know how to make things work, but then you have to think about how to scale that.
And we've, in these last five years, even more so entered that scaling phase where we're focused on how do we ensure that we have processes in place to make things more repeatable.
Joe Muratore: I like that phrase, success favors the bold. And it does. It absolutely does. Uh, there's, there's quite a few pitfalls with dumb boldness.
But the truth is that most people won't have a chance to sit in these chairs. Most people won't have the boldness to build a business to-
Ryan Swehla: I feel like anyone can sit in these chairs. I mean-
Joe Muratore: These chairs, these ug- ...
Ryan Swehla: these chairs have been with us for
Joe Muratore: These are ugly chairs. We've had them a long time. You know, I, they're-
Ryan Swehla: I think they might have been in every podcast.
Joe Muratore: I think we're gonna, yeah.
Ryan Swehla: We may, a- a- after the, uh, fifth anniversary, we may, uh, upgrade to new chairs.
Joe Muratore: Eventually we're gonna bronze these chairs. But I feel like together, I, I, I think one thing to celebrate is the, the boldness that's come from the two of us. And it, it is a boldness about our market thesis, but it's also a, a boldness about showing up every day.
Mm. It's a boldness that, about leadership and calling out mistakes when they happen, and leaning into problems, and finding upside. And it is a boldness, I think, that's come, uh, from the two of us. And I think it's important to say that, you know, from 2020 to today, you know, a lot of our thesis has been borne out.
The secondary markets have grown. There's been y- you know, with, uh, Zoom, and self-driving cars, and an internet-based world, there's, and AI, there's been more and more reason to be outside of the primary markets. You know, I don't know that we would've called this, but, and we wouldn't have, but with inflation and tariffs, you know, building costs have doubled, and there's no reason to think that it's gonna become easier to be in the development business.
So for us to be, you know, in the used building business for this long, to have never done development, to have always been in the, we buy buildings at half the price and achieve 75% of the rents, whereas the n- you know, new developers pay 100% and have to get 100%, that thesis is borne out. You have to align that with market timing, and that hasn't always worked out as perfectly, but the, the core building blocks are there.
Ryan Swehla: Another thing you mentioned, secondary and tertiary markets. Another thing that has changed in these five years is five years ago we were trying to explain to people where Modesto or Bakersfield were on a map. That hasn't, you know, f- wholesale changed, but as we sit today, the Pension Real Estate Association, the preeminent organization in our industry, has research that we did published in their research journal about the merits of these markets.
And that would've been unimaginable five years ago to have that level of at least institutional awareness of the, the strategy that we have and the markets that we operate in.
Joe Muratore: Well, we've scaled a local strategy. We've taken the idea of local ownership- Mm ... and built it at institutional scale, and we've lived in those markets that are above the local family and below, you know, the large institutional.
And there's that, that tweener space- Yeah ... that, uh, we've been able to aggregate and build into 10 markets on.
Ryan Swehla: So let's talk a little bit about what hasn't changed in these five years. One thing that hasn't changed, it's in, back here, uh, in the back of our, uh, space here, is our core values. Positive, caring, and humble.
Excellence in execution. Owns the mission.
Joe Muratore: Number four, you're bouncing around.
Ryan Swehla: W- wants to win. Does the right thing. Does the right thing. I know them all by heart, you know, even if I have to do them out of order, and, and I think that speaks to an underlying, uh, fabric that has remained throughout, um, our history- Yeah
is this idea of all of these core values, but the one I always like to highlight is positive, caring, and humble because it is such a contrast to our industry as a whole, or it's... or I should say it's our industry as a whole is not characterized necessarily by those words.
Joe Muratore: I'd, I'd go to our core purpose.
We create environments that transform people's lives. I mean, fundamentally, we're here to improve buildings. Fundamentally, we are here to help people because people inhabit buildings, and buildings are worthless without people having a need for them. It starts with our company and the people in our business and having their lives be improved by the quality of this company and what we do, and having every single building we touch get better, every neighborhood we're in get better, every building, uh, virtually all of them are painted and landscaped.
Every building that we buy, most of them need leadership, and we provide leadership and a plan. They go from Just floating out there in space to, like, a plan. They look great, you know, and we make them better.
Ryan Swehla: I'd say another thing that hasn't changed is, uh, our friendship. Uh, it w- I've been meaning
Joe Muratore: to talk to you about that.
Ryan Swehla: Okay, maybe today it has. No, it's all
Joe Muratore: right. Uh,
Ryan Swehla: y- uh, I'll say it has and it hasn't. Um, it hasn't changed in that here we are entering, approaching 40 years of friendship.
Joe Muratore: That's crazy.
Ryan Swehla: Uh, which I don't know how that works if I just turned 39. Maybe I didn't. Um, but we're-
Joe Muratore: This goes back to the Reagan years, maybe the Carter years.
Ryan Swehla: And, you know, that, that has been a, a common currency and storyline of our lives and of our business lives. But then I also will say i- that relationship evolves. And, um, as we, as we grow older, like any relationship that lasts, takes on more and more of a timeless character to it because it's, it's weathered things.
Joe Muratore: Well, I can say I've watched you grow in your role and your ability and the things you've accomplished in the last five years, and it's been amazing to watch. You know, we're great friends, but we are also great in our respective roles. We're different in our attitude and in m- mentality, but we're, we're committed, and we have integrity, and we show up to do great work.
I guess after all these years, too, we're also good at smoothing, smoothing it out or spotting conflict. You know, I'm excited to keep doing this and keep doing it with you.
Ryan Swehla: Absolutely. And, uh, I look forward to celebrating 10 years of this podcast in, uh, no time at all.
Joe Muratore: How do you think this podcast will change in the next five years?
What... Where are we headed from here?
Ryan Swehla: You know, that's an interesting question, because the longer that we're in business together, the more we're able to gravitate to our higher and higher roles within the company. And I think what we'll see over time is a continued movement toward the strategic and toward the visionary and less of the nuts and bolts of the pie-making, so to speak.
Joe Muratore: I think in many ways it will still be like this. It'll be a little more relaxed, a little b- more reflective. I think people or investors or people who tune into this podcast are wanting to see who we are, see what, how we see the world, see what we're like as people. I mean, you form an opinion about a person in the first five seconds y- you meet them.
And so I think we're gonna continue to reflect on the market as it, as it changes. I think we'll continue to reflect on our business as it grows, and I think we'll maintain our... I'm positive we're going to maintain our, our friendship. And, um, I hope in, in year 10 this is still just as casual. And, um, I, I think the business will have grown quite a bit.
And, uh, I'm excited. Should be good. And as long as the world is changing, we will have things to talk about. Sounds great.
Join us for a special anniversary episode of Durable Value as we reflect on five years of podcasting and 17 years in business together. Hosts Joe and Ryan share candid insights on personal growth, leadership, and the evolution of their company. From navigating market cycles and scaling a team to the enduring power of friendship and core values, this episode is packed with wisdom for entrepreneurs, investors, and anyone interested in building something that lasts.
00:00 – Introduction: 5 Years of Podcasting
00:24 – How We’ve Changed: Personal Growth and Reflection
01:52 – Building a Team and Shifting Roles
02:31 – The Value of Long-Term Partnership
03:08 – Lessons from 55 Acquisitions and Market Cycles
03:29 – Navigating Market Downturns and Building Resilience
03:55 – Embracing Leadership and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
04:38 – The Spark of Joy in Building a Business
05:17 – From Surviving to Scaling: Process and Evolution
06:01 – The Importance of Boldness in Business
06:37 – The Story of the Podcast Chairs
06:57 – The Power of Showing Up and Leadership
07:18 – Market Shifts: Secondary Markets and Industry Recognition
08:24 – Scaling a Local Strategy to Institutional Level
09:03 – What Hasn’t Changed: Core Values and Company Purpose
09:59 – Improving Buildings, Neighborhoods, and Lives
10:46 – The Enduring Friendship Behind the Business
11:11 – How Relationships Evolve Over Time
11:36 – Looking Ahead: The Next 5 Years of the Podcast
12:35 – Staying Reflective and Visionary
13:05 – Final Thoughts