Navigating Real Estate Law and Investments with Larry Hass: Durable Value Ep 77
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Ryan Swehla: Well, Larry, thank you for joining us here today. Uh, we're with Larry Haas, partner with DRB Law Firm, a real estate boutique law firm. Uh, for full disclosure, uh, since, since you are a attorney, I should say that you guys represent us, and we've been very happy with that. Um, a- and I thought I'd start off by asking you, y- you've been in the industry for a while.
How did you first evolve into the industry, um, and, and how has your involvement changed over time?
Larry Haas: Thank you, Ryan, and thank you for inviting me. My background in, uh, in the industry goes back, I hate to say it, but it's al- almost 50 years. So-
Ryan Swehla: So you were five when you-
Larry Haas: No, I was I was a young- I w- I was knee high.
And, uh, but in, in all seriousness, uh, I got involved in the industry after serving a stretch with the government at the SEC and the Department of Labor. Oh,
Ryan Swehla: yeah. So
Larry Haas: I had, um, a background in securities law, and I had a background, uh, um, in, in pension fund regulation. And, uh, when I left, uh, the government, um, went to work in a private law firm that represented large insurance companies that invested pension fund assets in real estate, and they were just accommodating themselves to compliance with the pension laws which had been enacted in the 1970s- Wow
and trying to figure out their way through it. And, uh, I was one of the first people out of the government who worked on the pension laws on the government side. And, uh, so I began to help these law firms, uh, uh, through the law firm, helping the insurance companies first deal with their pension fund relationships and how they were gonna comply with these laws.
So I got involved in what their real estate activities were, and at that time, pension fund and institutional investor in real es- investment in real estate was just getting started. As other people began to be attracted to this industry, who were already in the industry as real estate experts- Yeah
either in acquisitions and dispositions, in office buildings, and, uh, in other property types, began to think of pension funds as attractive sources of capital, uh, I began developing other clients who were more entrepreneurial, who were just getting started, and helped them to develop th- their business.
Ryan Swehla: So i- initially, when pensions
So there was a period of time, obviously, when pensions did not and could not invest in real estate, and then there was this evolution into where they could. And so you're saying that the early participants, the early managers were insurance companies because they had already ... I'm- I'm assuming that's because they had already had their own real estate portfolio and they realized, "Hey, we could do this for pensions"?
Larry Haas: Yes. They realized they could do it after pensions They were doing it through the sale of group annuity contracts
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm
Larry Haas: to pension funds, providing annuities of, uh, for, for the beneficiaries. Normally, the insurance companies would fund those, those annuities with stocks and bonds. Some of the more entrepreneurial insurance companies, like Prudential and Equitable-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah
Larry Haas: began to think, "Well, we could also fund those annuities with real estate."
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And they began to put together real estate-type products that would back th- these annuity contracts. And, uh, one, one of these thing, one of the things that insurance companies are very good at doing is marketing, so they marketed to pension funds across the country
Ryan Swehla: Yeah
Larry Haas: really was focused on the United States and- Yeah ... and raised a lot of capital, invested in real estate. Most of the real estate was big office buildings. These were trophy buildings, big, uh, retail malls, uh, some hotels, some trophy hotel.
Ryan Swehla: So that w- that was it- That
Larry Haas: was it ... in terms of asset types There was no thought of industrial properties or apartments or multi-family.
There was no... Th- that was not a part of this portfolio.
Ryan Swehla: Interesting. So i- that landscape, uh, has changed over time, and I know I've spoken with a f- a friend of both of ours, Paul Dolinoi, who was with Equitable and, and helped build up that, um, pension investing business there. H- how have you seen the investing landscape change over time from the days when it was just kinda office buildings and, and trophy malls to, uh, what we have today?
Larry Haas: The first big change that I witnessed-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm ...
Larry Haas: was in, I would say, 1988, '89, when, um, c- commercial real estate went into what you'd almost call, um, a depression.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And the property values dropped enormously. Whereas the industry, until that point, the real estate investment industry had been dominated by the big insurance companies, some of the big banks, uh, and some of the more entrepreneur- small entrepreneurial firms.
Now, all of a sudden, Wall Street saw an opportunity And the opportunity began, began to be called opportunity funds.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And Morgan Stanley and Global, um, and Goldman Sachs were the first two big entrants into this. They saw, uh, an opportunity to buy up these distressed assets- Yeah ... and the opportunity w- to create really high returns.
A lot of people will, uh, remember, who were around at that time, that those were the days when banks that had large real estate loan portfolios-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: uh, were going under.
Ryan Swehla: Yep. Yeah, I bet. Yep.
Larry Haas: There was a big bank on the West Coast here called Security Pacific.
Ryan Swehla: Yep.
Larry Haas: There were others, uh, like that.
Ryan Swehla: SNL and the R- RTC days.
Larry Haas: The RTC- Yeah, yeah ... was, uh, was the result of this. Um, some of the banks, uh, would spin off these bad loans- Mm-hmm ... uh, into what they called bad banks.
Ryan Swehla: Yep.
Larry Haas: And, um, organizations like, like Morgan Stanley-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: and, and Goldman Sachs set up funds called opportunity funds, raised money from some of the big corporate pension funds-
Ryan Swehla: Yep
Larry Haas: uh, and used that capital to buy up these loan portfolios.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Um, I remember we worked on a deal for one of these investment banks with a loan portfolio of, um, I think it was like 1.8 billion that they bought for $475 million. So those were the kinds of deals that they were doing. And they worked out those portfolios-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah
Larry Haas: they did very successfully. And so the, the first opportunity fund became the second opportunity fund.
Ryan Swehla: So would you say that was kind of the beginning of the, uh, closed-end fund instead of kinda these core income-oriented investments, these truly the more value-add opportunistic closed-end vehicles?
Larry Haas: I think that, um, some of the entrepreneurial firm had started already- Yeah
with the, with the closed-end funds, but they, uh, really hadn't had the impact-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm ...
Larry Haas: that these opportunity funds had. The opportunity funds became the flavor of- Yeah ... the decade really, uh, um, of, of the '90s.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Everybody had to have an opportunity fund at that point.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: But it was the, the investment banks that really started that.
Prior to that time, the investment banks were not in this business at all.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah. Fascinating.
Larry Haas: And, uh, so that was the first- Yeah ... big change, uh, in the industry, was the, the prominence of the investment banks.
Ryan Swehla: You've been involved in, uh, the Pension Real Estate Association since its early days. Priya, uh, I know you're a board member and, uh, you serve as general counsel now.
How have you seen that organization evolve over time as our industry has changed?
Larry Haas: Uh, the Pension Real Estate Association was formed as a result of the enactment of ERISA, of the pension reform laws, as a result of Congress changing the tax rules that, for tax-exempt entities, uh, c- called, um, the unrelated business taxable income rules, uh, which got much more complicated.
So a n- a number of the people who were involved in the real estate, institutional real estate investment business, people at Prudential Insurance, AEW, and the like, uh, became very concerned about how they complied with or that they were going to comply with these rules, and really how the industry was going to comply with these rules.
And they got together, a few of these guys got together at a meeting in Washington. I was invited to this meeting, so this was ... And they decided to form an association to educate the industry and maybe to get people to call their congressmen and senators- Yeah ... and, and complain and do whatever they were gonna do.
Now, which never really happened, but they formed an association, and they decided to have conferences, a couple of conferences every year as educational venues Uh, they started out with 75 members, and now the association has about 800 members- Wow ... organizations.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: So when they have these conferences, they typically have between 800 and 1,200 people- Yeah
at a conference now.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And, uh, it's become the, the leading organization in the real estate, in the institutional real estate business.
Ryan Swehla: And, uh, it, it sounds like the, kind of the mandate or the purpose of the organization very quickly moved from a potential lobbying influence organization to a education-oriented organization.
Larry Haas: That's correct. It's an education-oriented exemption, um, association. Um, it's become also a, a networking-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: opportunity.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Some people use it as, um, as a marketing opportunity, which, which upsets the people who are being marketed to.
Ryan Swehla: Yes.
Larry Haas: Yeah. But, uh, we don't have to talk about that, but-
Ryan Swehla: It's a wolves and sheep, uh, environment at those conferences at times.
Larry Haas: But it's, uh... But for, for a lot of people, I think, um, the information that you gain-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: from being at these conferences, uh, yeah, it was really excellent. Um, and we g- get more and more young people-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm ...
Larry Haas: who are coming to the conferences.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Um, so a lot of the original, the original 75-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: I don't, I don't see a lot of those folks anymore at these conferences.
Some of them, unfortunately, have passed away, yeah.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah. Well, it's, it's interesting because I've experienced that the industry and the Pension Real Estate Association is a fairly collegial sort of, uh, association. You know, you've got a, a lot of managers like us in the organization, so you... It could be potentially a very kind of competitive environment.
But what, what I've found over time is that you, uh, develop lifelong colleagues, friends, peers through, through the organization, the conferences. I don't know if you've found it to be similar.
Larry Haas: I think it is. I, I think, uh... Look, uh, on the investment manager side, they're competing for investors.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: They are competing for assets.
B- but the truth of it is, I think, um, a lot of the investment manager people that I've run into Um, they, um, like to share information.
Ryan Swehla: Yep.
Larry Haas: They like to share their experiences. Yep. And they realize that they're all in the same business.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And, um, and they're all... A lot of them are working, uh, with the same investors.
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm.
Larry Haas: Many of the big investors are invested in all different, uh, w- with a host of different managers-
Ryan Swehla: Yep ...
Larry Haas: different asset classes, different property types within the real estate, uh, community. So, um, it, it's not like if I don't get that investor-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: uh, because someone stole them from me. Yeah. That's not the-
Ryan Swehla: Not a zero-sum
Larry Haas: game
that's not the thinking. You know, I've developed a lot of friends and clients-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: as a result of being involved in, in the association. But to me, it's always been a very f- it, it's a friendly environment.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: There are other lawyers who show up at the conferences as well. And
Ryan Swehla: it's okay. Uh, how, so how have you seen the, uh, industry change over time, particularly from your legal lens?
Uh, you know, what are kind of both the opportunities and the challenges that you see today, uh, that maybe are different than they were, you know, 20, 30 years ago?
Larry Haas: From the legal, um, perspective- Um, which I n- never thought was going to happen
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm
Larry Haas: It never even dawned on me, unfortunately. W- when I was thinking about, um, being, um, in, in this business, it was all very, uh, very, um, U- United States focused- Mm-hmm
in terms of the asset classes, in terms of the investors- Yeah ... and in terms of the investment managers. That evolved, um, really, um, at the turn of the century-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm ...
Larry Haas: when, um, the investors began to look overseas for real estate investment opportunities-
Ryan Swehla: Yep ...
Larry Haas: beg- began looking for investment managers first in Europe-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm
Larry Haas: um, and then in Asia, m- much more recently in Asia. They began looking for, um, um ... And the investment managers began looking for investors all over the globe.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And investors all over the globe began looking at the United States-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: as probably the best opportunity-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: in the long run-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: for investing in real estate.
And, uh, so their allocations, uh, o- offshore- Yeah ... investors' allocations, uh, began to expand into the US, and, uh, US investors' allocations began to expand offshore, offshore real estate. So, uh, I got heavily involved with clients in Europe. I got heavily involved with clients in Asia-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: um, and, um, more recently in Latin America.
And, uh, so w- uh, we're seeing investors from all those parts of the world. Yeah. We saw i- investment activity for clients, uh, in different parts of Asia and Europe And, um, and w- w- we're working for clients who are located there. Finally, um, for whatever reason, both regulatory and political, uh, um, Europe has, has developed these rules through the EU-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm
Larry Haas: that makes it much more difficult for US in- investment managers to raise capital in Europe, so there's a whole other compliance, uh, compliance r- r- r- regimen that I have to deal with. W- w- well, for my clients, a lot of them are raising capital in Europe. How do we raise capital in Europe, comply with all these rules which are so different than the rules in the United States?
Ryan Swehla: Interesting.
Larry Haas: Um, that's been, from a practice standpoint, it's required us to expand our capabilities beyond the US requirements, so US securities laws, tax laws. Now we have to learn about tax laws and regulatory requirements. In Europe, um, we have clients who are raising money in the Middle East. You have to become sophisticated, not only what the rules are in the different countries about marketing in those countries, but some of those investors have Shariah compliance requirements, and then all of a sudden you learn about all those things and how to fit that in to the structuring All of this has led to the structuring of real estate funds, which used to be a very simple, d- do a limited partnership agreement and fairly simple- And everyone
Ryan Swehla: just invests
Larry Haas: in it
everybody invests in the partnership agreement. And you might have a REIT subsidiary even, but it, it was a simple... Now you have, I d- did one fund recently, has five parallel funds so that d- that different investors can invest and have their tax needs met in, in, in, in structuring in the same properties-
but through different vehicles for tax and regulatory purposes.
Ryan Swehla: So, uh, uh, uh, zooming out a little bit, i- it sounds like in many senses the industry has also gotten more complex over that period of time, 'cause I, I heard you mention more participants, more, uh, regulatory oversight, and then more complexity as it relates to the investor type as well.
Larry Haas: And I have the, the one further thing, Ryan. Yeah. Remember at the outset we talked about the funds basically invested in office-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: shopping malls- ... and a couple of hotels. Now nobody wants to invest in office. Nobody wants to invest in shopping malls, and everything is multifamily-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: indus- uh, industrial data centers.
Ryan Swehla: And then the proliferation- Mobile
Larry Haas: homes.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: You know. There are senior living funds.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: There are student housing funds.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: All right? But don't mention office. Office is not popular right now, right? If you're going t- to do retail, don't do shopping malls. Do strip malls and- ... and power centers and things like that.
So the whole, the, the whole landscape- Yeah ... if you will.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Uh, the w- whole landscape of, of, well, of real estate investing-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: has changed as to property types.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Uh, in addition, in the early days you only invested in, uh, the gateway cities. Yeah. That was it. Office buildings in New York, office buildings in Los Angeles.
Now it's, now it's other markets, and now it's the smaller markets- Yeah ... where the attractive opportunities are being found. It's different kinds of property types in those markets.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: I think that was even going on before COVID. Mm-hmm. But as, uh, as, as you and I have talked about- Yeah, yeah ... uh, w- w- with the ad, uh, with, with what happened with COVID and everybody working from home in residential environments and everybody realizing, "If I can work from home- Yeah
in a residential environment, it can be outside the city. It can be- It can be
Ryan Swehla: anywhere ...
Larry Haas: somewhere."
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And, uh, with technology, uh, that's, uh, all of a sudden opened the opportunities for investing in real estate outside the big cities.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah, and you mentioned technology. It, it seems like that is also something that has expanded the real estate universe as well because we have more visibility, more transparency, more ability to aggregate data, uh, more readily as well.
Larry Haas: Yeah. That's true. A lot of, um, uh, everything w- w- when I started out was paper.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: Tons of paper. Right? Now we're, now it's, now it's all, it's all on data centers. Yeah. You know, it's all, it's all, all, all data on, on websites. And, uh, if you can access it through, through, through password protection, et cetera-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah
Larry Haas: that's what the investors are looking for. They're not looking for paper anymore.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The, you, you mentioned that, uh, office and, uh, shopping malls out of favor i- is anyone who's read headlines knows this as well. That, you know, that's probably a temporary thing. I, I suspect that over the long season of time that resolves itself.
You've been through, uh, you know, real estate cycles over the years, over the decades. Uh, I'd love to hear, uh, maybe about w- which real estate cycle you found to be the most traumatic or the most challenging, and also what you or what the industry learned as a result of that.
Larry Haas: Well, um- Probably, uh, the, uh, the one that had the biggest shock
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm
Larry Haas: was the one I pointed to earlier, which, uh, in the late '80s, early '90s, that led to the opportunity funds. The shock went through the whole banking industry.
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm.
Larry Haas: The shock went through the real estate industry.
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm.
Larry Haas: And this was the first time that anybody really had to deal with that, and, uh, the dislocation was enormous.
So from the standpoint of the, of the real estate industry-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: the banking industry, the shockwave was terrible.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: When we had the global, uh, financial crisis-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: and when we had COVID, and now when we have the rapid rise in interest rates- Yeah ... um, and the drop in value of office and- Yeah ... and, and shopping malls, um, the industry has a memory.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: The assets, uh, obviously, and the way it, it works obviously is the assets are repriced.
Ryan Swehla: Yes.
Larry Haas: Someone buys them at the lower price-
Ryan Swehla: Yep ...
Larry Haas: and works it out.
Ryan Swehla: And someone sells them at the higher
Larry Haas: price. And someone sells them at the lower price. And, uh, i- i- in, uh, in the late '80s, early '90s, it was hugely traumatic.
Mm-hmm. The global, the financial crisis, and- Mm-hmm ... those of us who lived through it, the memory of that was it happened really fast.
Ryan Swehla: Mm.
Larry Haas: Uh, and those assets reprice quickly, and they work their way out v- very quickly. We had some funds that the drop in value, w- the, the, the value of their funds dropped to zero.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah, yeah.
Larry Haas: And but this time they didn't sell those assets or give them away. They worked them out, and they were able to get back to at least par.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And but they had... It took 'em a, a year or two, but that was a faster-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: the global f- financial crisis went much more quickly-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: than the earlier, the earlier crisis, which really took 10 years.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And, um, right now the issue we're facing with, with office-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: if you watch what's happening recently, all of a sudden those assets are beginning to trade. And the realization is happening that interest rates are not going back down.
Ryan Swehla: Yep.
Larry Haas: So the price is, is what it is. It is
Ryan Swehla: what it is.
Larry Haas: And, and, you know, and the question for everybody is, do I continue to hold these, or do I, I sell them and move on?
And so there's a lot of decisions being made to sell and move on.
Ryan Swehla: It's interesting because we keep hearing about this wall of maturity, wall of maturity, and this... Y- you know, there's gonna be blood in the streets and, uh, mass foreclosures, and so far that hasn't meaningfully played out. I suspect there's still some distress that is being obscured, but, but I, I haven't heard that this idea also that it seems like you're saying that the market has gotten a little bit more efficient at working through distress more efficiently maybe than creating the RTC and having to, you know, this long protracted version of doing the same thing.
Uh, I'd, I'd be curious your perspective.
Larry Haas: The banks and the other lenders are much more sophisticated-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: than they used to be.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And, uh, uh, everybody who's in that business now understands that they took a beating-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: back on-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: back in, in those high-pressure periods-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: uh, by, by selling off the assets.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: So now, while everybody is wringing their hands on, on the wall of maturity, also what you hear is extend and pretend.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And, and so that means w- w- we're just gonna keep carrying these loans because we know-
Ryan Swehla: Yeah ...
Larry Haas: that there'll be a recovery at some point. Yeah. And we're just not gonna take a beating- Yeah
and hand that beating over to the Morgan Stanleys and the Goldman Sachses, you know, of 2025.
Ryan Swehla: That's fascinating. You... A- as we're, as we're, uh, as we're wrapping up here, I'd, I'd love to get your perspective, y- you know, as, as a longtime, um, industry participant. Y- as there are young people, as you mentioned, entering the industry, uh, there are younger professionals.
We now have or- organizations helping support younger professionals in the industry. Do you have a- any kind of words of wisdom or, or thoughts or perspective for someone who's new to the industry?
Larry Haas: Yeah. I would say a, a couple of things. There's a tremendous amount of opportunity in this industry because there are so many disciplines that are required.
There are the people who are great at, at evaluating property types-
Ryan Swehla: Mm-hmm ...
Larry Haas: and evaluating the value of assets and making wiser decisions as to... And you can learn from those people. There are other people who are great at managing the properties- Mm-hmm ... well, once they've been acquired, and how you- How you add value.
Yeah. You know, you hear a lot of property types called value add- Mm-hmm ... properties. Well- Mm-hmm ... pr- value needs to be added, and how you do that is, is a real talent.
Ryan Swehla: Yeah.
Larry Haas: And so there are people you can learn from in that. So you become a participant in, in, in, in, in this industry. You can learn a lot of things.
For other people, there are people who have the talent of being able to communicate- Yeah ... with, with others. And for them, people who can raise capital, who can convince investors- Yeah ... can explain how, how, how an investment makes sense, who have that, that skill. Um, people who can raise capital, they're enormously valuable in this industry.
There are other people who are accountants, who are lawyers. Yeah. And, uh, so there are all these skills that the industry needs, and you can find your way into it. And the important thing that I've seen is the people who are passionate and who love it and who really, uh, have an interest in it and work that interest become very successful.
Ryan Swehla: Well, Larry, thank you for taking the time today, and I really appreciate it.
Larry Haas: Thank you, Ryan. Um, it, it was a pleasure. I, I enjoyed this.
In this episode of 'Durable Value,' host Ryan sits down with Larry Hass, a seasoned partner at DRB Law Firm, specializing in real estate law. They speak about Larry's extensive career, his transition from government roles at the SEC and Department of Labor to private practice, and the evolution of real estate investments over the last 50 years. The discussion covers the emergence of pension fund investments, the impact of regulatory changes, and the shifts in investment landscapes and property types over the decades. Larry also shares insights on the Pension Real Estate Association's role and offers advice for new entrants into the industry.
00:00 Introduction
00:28 Larry's Entry into Real Estate
01:17 Evolution of Pension Fund Investments
03:03 Impact of Regulatory Changes
04:47 Investment Banks and Opportunity Funds
08:22 The Role of Pension Real Estate Association
13:57 Globalization of Real Estate Investments
17:39 Changing Asset Preferences
19:25 Impact of Technological Advancements
20:33 Real Estate Cycles and Market Efficiency
25:30 Advice for Young Professionals in Real Estate
27:08 Conclusion